Can We Trust Sponge?

General Discussion
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Let me start by saying, I’m not familiar with anyone on the team developing Sponge (besides @sk89q) , though from what I’ve read it’s quite a meeting of the minds, and I’m very excited to see this project develop. However, I think being cautious about who servers trust with being their backbone is a very valid topic and it should be discussed. Is there any way to let people rest easy and be assured that Sponge won’t go to the way side in a couple years? What makes this project different from Bukkit? Furthermore, what makes it stand out from the many other plugin API’s?

Please keep an open mind to the questions and give thoughtful answers.

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Well, first off I would say very definitely No, there isn’t any way to assure people that this project won’t vanish in a couple of years. Hell, you can’t say that any project will not vanish after a couple of years. So that is a fairly moot point anyway.

Next, if you have followed any of the discussion in the umpteen countless threads on here it is already very apparent that this is different from Bukkit simply in how it came to be. That and the fact that it is a complete writeup from the ground up makes it different. Couple that with the fact that this sits on top of Forge and could potentially allow greater customization of the game sets it apart from Bukkit.

Finally what other plugin API’s? Spigot? That is about the only other plugin API out there. So I would have to say it depends on what you mean by this question. Otherwise, the answer seems fairly self evident based on the answers to previous questions.

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Just to add to your list there’s also Cauldron, which in my mind isn’t as big as Spigot/Bukkit/Sponge. But they cover more things not just plugins, such as server management and server advertisments, etc. Not entirely certain if I would personally trust Cauldron as much as Bukkit/Spigot/Sponge.

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Everyone on the team either came from bukkit or a extremely popular mod. @sk89q made worldedit if you’re not familiar with that then i don’t know what to tell you.

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The leader of Cauldron, bloodmc, is co-leader of this project. Cauldron is MCPC+, which originally mapped the Bukkit api to Forge, allowing both Forge mods and Bukkit plugins to coexist on the same server. It actuallyused the Spigot fork of Craftbukkit, so in reality, it was Spigot on top of Forge, and contained Spigot’s performance enhancements.

sk89q wrote WorldEdit and WorldGuard, arguably two of the most important plugins that exist for Minecraft. Most of the other Bukkit developers are here. I don’t think the project could be in better hands! :smile:

Essentially the Sponge implementation will be the Sponge API on top of Forge, so it will be very Cauldron-like, so to speak, in that native Forge mods and Sponge plugins will be able to coexist on the same server. If you are just running Sponge plugins on the server and no native Forge mods that require a client side mod installation, they are heading towards being able to use a vanilla client, just like Craftbukkit/Spigot. (Right now a Forge server doesn’t allow vanilla client connections, but my understanding is that is going to change.)

Jim

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I just don’t think a server owner should have to change their server’s foundation every few years, why can’t there be a project. We started with hMod, which was ‘eh’, then came Bukkit to save the day when hMod’s progress dwindled. Now Sponge shines light on the dreary scene left in the wake of Bukkit’s collapse, but for how long can we expect this project to maintain cohesion?

I’m brand new to the Sponge community, just made my account today, and this is my first topic. Excuse me for not having prior knowledge of all previous threads concerning Sponge, I’ll try not to miss any from here on out.

I’ve read about miscellaneous projects being conceived on the Minecraft forum, but there’s also existing projects like “CanaryMod” that have been in development for some time already.

I don’t mean to come off argumentative or sarcastic, I’m just presenting some questions that I feel are important and deserve well-thought answers.

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I suppose I wasn’t fully accurate in my first post then, I am aware of @sk89q and have used a few of his tools/mods.

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Well, this case was very unique.

If this DMCA didn’t hit, Spigot would of simply taken over for Bukkit fully. Spigot was already a great alternative to CraftBukkit, but because of the politics, we were restricted from really expanding the API in Spigot.

Things such as Item Attributes I would of loved to of put in Spigot myself - but that’s one of those things “You have to adhere to Bukkit as the source of truth” or else if they did something different than how spigot did it “early”, things would of broke. If it wasn’t for the DMCA, We would of been in a great position as Spigot would of then took over and we would have Bukkit + a faster developing community. (well, we might still have spigot, but distributing the release is an issue)

But, the DMCA changed everything. The only reason Bukkit as an eco system is dead is because of the DMCA, not because “we have to change eco systems every few years”.

I wasn’t around during the hmod days, but im sure there was a good reason Bukkit started over instead of forking hmod…

Wait, it’s probally the same reason Sponge is starting over instead of simply implementing the Bukkit API: To do things better :smile:

It’s really down to the DMCA as to why, and then trying to get around that legal mess required rewriting tons of stuff anyways - so it gave opportunity to clear up legal concerns.

The good news? A foundation of Sponge has been to clear up any legal risks by using the MIT license.

So, in 2-3 years if EVERYONE on Sponge decides to quit, then anyone is free to fork and continue the project themselves, and I assure you someone will if that ever did happen.

So Sponge will be the last change needed.

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Well thank you for covering up that, quite a lot of valuable information you’ve provided not only for myself but for everyone else that may have an interest on this topic. I just have little knowledge on the whole scheme of things I guess. Now I have a larger knowledge base on what’s exactly happening. Which seems to me that Sponge will be the new big hit.

@Seathre
You shouldn’t have doubts on Sponge, bias opinion I guess on my behalf. But I can almost guarantee that this will essentially work out for every server/user it may encounter. Plus the staff team/dev team are filled with highly qualified people which again they will ensure the success of Sponge.

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I am glad to learn that the project is being developed under the MIT license, at least Sponge could be forked and reforked if necessary to keep the project going. Although, a dedicated team is preferable to developers passing the code off like hot potato. lol

I have high hopes for this project, don’t let the community down!

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The problem is that these people are not paid, this is not their job. They are donating their free time to this project, and if their personal situation changes they may need to leave the project. But, this is the magic about open source projects, anyone can pick up the flag and carry the project forward. That is why some open source projects have been going for decades. The problem with Minecraft mods and such is that they are built on close source, tainted by close source if you wish. But there is also a very positive outcome from this, every now and then a wildfire comes along, burns everything to the ground, and a stronger seeds replaces the bloated tree that once stood there.

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I want to say a few things. You know sk89q from a lot of projects he’s worked on undoubtedly. Bloodmc, co-leader of the project has been behind Cauldron/MCPC+ for a long time now. Many of the other developers have worked on Spout/Flow or other Minecraft API’s or subsystems that have been in development and use for a long time. Some either depended on Bukkit or were inspired by it in some way. Because of this, many people came when the call was made for help on this new project. You may not know the people working on this project, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t to be trusted. Do you not personally know the doctors who treat you in an emergency room? I guess if you don’t, you shouldn’t trust them. That’s not realistic. You can’t know everyone. However, the working track record for many of the developers on this project speaks for itself. Before questioning people, do a little time and put in the effort to research who you are questioning :slight_smile: .

You may not have heard of non-developer contributors working on this project either. Many support people like myself have been contributors in one community or another for a long time and have done their best to help their community grow. I come from Cauldron, though I have been a long time idler of almost every aspect of Minecraft since the birth of the game.

Another point you brought up was about having to drop one supported server standard and switch to another every once in a while. Have you seen how software works? Typically you have to upgrade your operating system over time for one reason or another (usually do to lack of support for older systems). In this process, you have to leave the old in place of the new. Sometimes there are upgrade systems, but in the end, you are no longer using the old OS, but are now using the new one. Change happens. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it’s great. I think in this case it will be good. We have a chance here to correct many of the mistakes that we as a community have made in the past or to build on new technology to create a better game system.

Sometimes it’s good to be cautious. It’s good to ask questions. Just make sure you aren’t cautious to a fault.

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As a developer under Bukkit, Craftbukkit, Craftbukkit++, Spigot, MCPC+, Spoutcraft, SpoutcraftPlugin and another 50 plugins that are publicly available, I love it when people state that “poor me” for having to change platforms, something that they are getting for free…

I don’t recall the same group of people contributing massive amount of money to cover the time that the hundreds of developers put in so that YOU can run your server…

/endRant

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There are always going to be changes to the community, that is a fact of the way open source works, don’t complain, just deal with the fact that some people don’t wan’t to work on the same project for their entire lives as if they are your slaves constantly updating their code for your use.

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Personally, if there was a paid alternative, I would use it over any free option. If Sponge chooses to have a paid version, or even accept donations, I’ll gladly contribute to the project in order to keep it going for as long as possible.

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That’s against the EULA I think.

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Not necessarily.

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I think you’ve misunderstood. Of course I don’t expect people to work for free or spend their whole life on one project. What I hope for is that future projects like Sponge can exist for more than a couple years. I don’t have an example to give, but I’m sure there’s plenty of open source projects that people rely on and would be devastated by their sudden closure. I don’t mean to complain, no one is entitled to the use of Sponge, Bukkit or any project, but they are projects many server owners rely on to keep their communities working and their players happy.

The stability of this project is paramount, that’s all I’m concerned with.

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While it is not possible to give any form of guarantee, we can tackle it through the way the project is structured.

  • The license of Sponge is extremely permissive, allowing another team to take over if we were unable to continue the project for whatever reason, unencumbered by significant legal concerns.
  • The API is currently fairly block game-agnostic, so someone could theoretically port Sponge’s API to another game if Minecraft no longer becomes an option.
  • If something were to happen to Forge, we could port Sponge to a different platform.
  • If Minecraft were to get its own plugin API, it should be possible to rewrite Sponge on top of the official plugin API.
  • I have a tendency to build my projects and systems defensively, expecting that I may be absent throughout times of the year or Bad Things may happen at inopportune times.

hMod suffered from technical problems, and I can’t even recall if there was a license defined.

Bukkit is encumbered by legal problems.

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I’m really glad to know you’ve already thought of this, it makes me even more excited about this project. The fact that Sponge would still be a viable option even if an official API is released also is very good to hear, that was another concern I had been thinking about.

Also, thanks to everyone who remained polite and gave thoughtful answers. I certainly didn’t mean to cause issue with anyone personally.