I am Husk's lead developer here to clear up confusion and answer questions

General Discussion
72

Yes, sponge has an API and an implementation but the API itself is universal. All the API does is describe to a program how it is allowed to interface with the implementation. The devs can write as many implementations as they want as long as the sponge API still correctly describes the methods, classes, etc. that are accesible to a plugin running on that implementation.

An implementation could be made for forge, glowstone or really any other server out there including a vanilla server (legal problems) and as long as those implementations still have the stuff that the API says will be there there will be no issue. Like @sk89q said, there is no way to be 100% detached from your implementation. There has to be an “agreement” between the two for it to work.

73

This entire thread is 100% inappropriate for this forum. Make your own forum and explain yourself there.

Competition is NOT good for a modding community especially when it comes to its API. Nobody pays for this, price is not a worry, so competition just brings fragmentation and a split community. As a plugin developer I will 100% not even glance at Husk as an API, I do not need the headache of dealing with a Sponge version, a Spigot version and a Husk version and I doubt many other devs will do so out of the need for YOU to compete with sponge.

Not providing the source is irrelevant to me, your community is small and there is no source code, the site has broken links for important things. You need to provide something for people to get behind you or even consider you an option, nobody is going to wait for Husk when Sponge is ready to be used.

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74

I have to disagree with you, @Firestar. Although you’re right that the money factor is basically non-existant, there is another factor: quality. Having several APIs compete with each otehr will cause all the developers to do their best to increase the quality of their API, simply to get more people to use their API.

It will eventually lead to one API having a monopoly again, be it Sponge, Husk, or something else, so the “fragmentation” will only be a problem for the next few months, where several APIs try to fill the vacuum created by Bukkit’s death.

Inevitably, it will lead to the one API having the monopoly that suits the community most, since the others have literally been ditched by the community.

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75

Except people do not select based on quality, but size of plugin list and community. So once again competition means NOTHING except for a fragmented community. It doesn’t matter how well Husk is coded if nobody makes plugins for it, then no community will form. You can’t do anything with just an API.

There is no case of a monopoly when it comes to this kind of project. Its done as a interface for plugin devs, thats all, Plugin devs are not asking for much, just a way for their plugins to:

  1. Not require constant updating to fit new versions of minecraft
  2. Simple to implement
  3. Stability
  4. Hooks to enable the plugin dev to do, what he wants.

Seriously whoever thinks that plugin devs will work free of charge to update to multiple api implementations just because the leader of the Husk team has an issue with the ideology of Sponge and then decides to implement something very similar is absolute rubbish. Plugin devs are not interested in a fight amongst APIs. APIs are not complex it’s not like there is that big of a difference. 300+ plugin devs have already decided that sponge will be the next implementation, the community follows the plugin devs. Thats how it works. (If the plugin did not exist the api would be pointless to install on their server, that is what I mean for clarification purposes.)

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76

It’s not much of a shitstorm when I’m the only one who got their panties in a twist :slight_smile: I have to apologize for overreacting and being SO angry but I still stand by what I said about it being a random, unrelated joke/observation to make in the middle of a discussion.

Anyway! Enough about that! I have another question about Sponge and Husk that I hope you (or someone else) will be able to explain to me.

As I understand it, this is how sponge and husk are set up

Sponge api → Sponge implementation → Platform (Forge, glowstone etc)

Api (Huskapi + any others) → Husk implementation → Huskd

So since a fork of Sponge (unofficial or not) can be altered to support another platform, isn’t it possible to port Sponge completely over to Husk?

The reason I’m asking is, if it is possible then there wouldn’t have to be any Husk vs Sponge at all because you’re not forced to choose. It’ll just be one of Husk’s many many supported APIs that you can pick out if you decide to forgo forge.

The two products obviously have vastly different goals and, again, seem like they could work great with each other not against like people have been assuming they will be at the end of the day. The two projects can’t really be compared to each other unless Husk were to have it’s own api completely mandatory.

Edit: Fixed with @Meegoo’s corrections

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77

No, you’re wrong
Implementation is what makes API actually do things. Implementation of Husk API for Huskd cannot work with Sponge API, because logic.
It looks like that

Sponge now
Sponge -> Sponge implementation for Forge -> Forge -> FML -> MCP -> NMS

Husk now
Husk API -> Husk implementation for Huskd -> Huskd -> (NMS?)

Other variants
Sponge -> Sponge implementation for Huskd -> Huskd -> (NMS?)
Sponge -> Sponge implementation for Platform N - > Platform N
Husk API -> Husk implementation for Forge -> Forge -> FML -> MCP - > NMS
Husk API -> Husk implementation for Platform N -> Platform N

You can look at this topic for better understanding of how it works

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78

Ahhh okay I see! And thanks for the link! I’ll edit my post to reflect the correction but, assuming that a Sponge implementation for Huskd is created so they could work together, wouldn’t that still solve being forced to choose between the two and any divide between the two of them? I don’t know how easy that would be but if husk gets a large enough following it could happen.

(not part of the official branch of Sponge of course but as a unofficial fork)

79

ok.

We also wouldn’t have had to post here if we didn’t have people constantly slandering us.

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80

yeah except you are posting on Sponge forums, nobody here really cares what Husk is let alone any myths about it. If you want to address issues with your poor marketing and poor availability of project resources then do so on your own site. Its your problem that people are so confused as to what Husk is and why there is no source code for an open source project. The reason why its being laughed at on Sponge forums is because, we have already thrown-in with sponge. Who has decided to use Husk? you don’t even have forums for a community to start. or a reddit, or anything. You want us to take you seriously? then act serious. Nobody cares that you are a student and don’t have enough time, many of us here are students. Its not an excuse for poor organization and planning.

This may seem that I am being a prick, but come on, your FAQ did nothing to answer peoples questions. Nobody actually believed that Microsoft was backing your project. They want to see the source to see if you are serious. Nobody is going to back a project with nothing to show that its a legit project. And no way to discuss with you guys on a forum. You don’t even have an IRC channel advertised…

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81

You come onto a forum site such as this and advertise your server software that you claim will be so much better than Sponge. You fail to give us very detailed information, however.

Where’s the source code then? I see no repos in Github, Bitbucket, etc.
One cannot say that their project is open sourced if it’s clearly not. Finished or not, if you say it’s open source, then make it so. Sponge and SpongeAPI aren’t finished in the slightest, however they are both open source. The project developers and leaders are giving us periodic updates, whereas you aren’t giving anyone any important information.

I understand if something such as your library libnative is closed-source, but the whole Huskd project? Surely you couldn’t have developed Huskd with the intention of it being open sourced when you include proprietary code that you wish not to be open sourced as well.

How is one able to gain popularity for an upcoming product if they provide broken links to core information (I.E. source code)? Sponge, for example, isn’t giving official pre-release builds or anything of the sort, but giving the source code to us allows us to build it freely and help build and iron it out.

Look at most of the major projects that have ever been developed and you’ll notice that they all have documentation and source code available even when the latest code is broken or unfinished.

@antarianetwork posted an XKCD comic showing exactly what you’re doing - creating yet another unnecessary project when there’s already several out there in various stages of development. Sponge decided to go beyond what other projects were doing and decided to merge together several projects that were already fairly standardized, thus encouraging developers and server owners to switch over when it’s ready. It gave the appearance of being an ideal project to be standardized as developers wouldn’t have to spend countless hours learning a completely unfamiliar API.

He also made the point of questioning your motives of introducing yet another competitor to the scene. When a project such as Sponge is open sourced, and developers and server owners are planning to switch over, bringing in competition doesn’t help anyone. On top of that, not taking several vital steps that Sponge, and even Bukkit, took that you’re not only makes competition even more pointless. Such steps would include a community, forum, source code, etc.

I, along with most others, agree with @Firestar when he says that no one is going to take you seriously when all you do is continue to attempt to deceive us (it isn’t working). There is no actual proof that your project is legitimate. Having a website with a pretty generic description isn’t proof. Something such as source code would be more than enough proof to show that Huskd is a legitimate project. Regardless of whether or not you’re a student, you should be able to provide us with at least that much.

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82

I have to agree with that. Even putting up a very basic faq on the site now would clear up a lot for people who don’t browse these forums or see this thread (Who would most likely be your target audience anyway). Or even an about page.

83

The problem with any of your arguments as it stands, @Firestar, is that the heads of the Sponge community are welcoming the competition. They’re welcoming discussions of other APIs on this forum. At this point, it feels like you’re getting nothing across short of aggravating people, as any issues with this as it concerns Sponge has been resolved. There is no fragmentation. People who prefer Husk will follow Husk until there’s a reason not to, same with anything else.

@InvokeStatic didn’t appear to advertise Husk here, it was a troll ( @TelFiRE ), and that was already resolved as well.

This has already been addressed well. The project is due to be open source, but the source cannot yet be made legally available. I’m sure their dev team would love to get off Sponge forums and deal with their own projects if everyone would get off their backs about the trouble caused by someone unrelated to them. I’m sure if they’re actually going to do something, we’ll see something come of their website, source, community, etc at a later date, and until then, it shouldn’t concern us much at all.

This is perfect and fine for a team the size of Sponge, but as Husk stands, there’s far fewer developers. As I’ve mentioned before, I wouldn’t expect them to properly document and clarify much when they likely weren’t prepared for the shit they’re receiving from Sponge’s community.

I fully support Sponge, but the shit other APIs are getting from here is getting a bit excessive. Despite the moderators having mentioned that they’ll allow these threads to continue provided it doesn’t invoke flame wars, it seems to slowly be going in that direction anyways.

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84

I glanced at the thread, seeing that the guy (TelFiRE) saying that Microsoft and Mojang completely supported him and all.
Except this thread could still be looked at as advertising, as he’s posting about it saying that it’s almost ready for release.

85

Disregard anything he says. TelFiRE != InvokeStatic and Invoke is the Husk developer, not TelFiRE

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86

I understand and agree with what you mean, but I was talking about something really basic. Like a simple, incomplete list of devs possibly with contact info (I understand if they wouldn’t at this point though) and a short about page for their very tentative future plans and what they’re currently working on (Like the whole licensed libs problem) Heck, posting to a husk subreddit and occasionally updating there would be enough.

I understand that they weren’t prepared for the amount of shit they suddenly got, but in addition to posting here, they could also put it somewhere on their site. Heck, they could literally copy and paste the op and it would be enough because it answers most of the questions everyone had.

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87

Possibly so, but I doubt they were even worried about providing those sorts of details until they were ready to release the source, so just put a placeholder website in the mean time.

It may seem trivial, but putting together a document to reflect a a project is likely only easy if it’s a small, single-person project. They may be trying to put something up as we speak. Maybe they’re circulating a document among themselves, but it would still take some time to have something accurate. Not sure how long it takes sk89q to format any of the documents we see, or how many other people are involved in it.

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88

Flame wars typically involve personal attacks, which don’t seem to have occured yet. As so far, all that I’ve seen involves legitimate questions and issues regarding Husk, which I have no problem with, the moderation team will simply intervene if posts have no relevance to the issue at hand and/or merely insult people.

Further, as we’ve permitted discussion of other APIs on this forum, asking to actually be able to view another API+Implementation is essential in being able to properly evaluate it. Until the source code (Even without documenation) is actually available, I see no issue with people criticising the lack of it.

89

I’m sure that’s all true, especially the part about it being a placeholder. And You may be right about them making docs as we speak. But I was saying is that the faq they posted here two days ago, could’ve been and could be copy and pasted over on their site to help clear up questions for anyone else who may not even see this thread too. About pages and docs outlining their projects could take a while but seeing as they already have an brief faq created already, it shouldn’t take long to move that much over to their site.

90

I quite understand. It just seems people are becoming more and more hostile towards Husk and repeating the same concerns (which almost come across as attacking their credibility, not that they had a good introduction here) in more and more hostile context. Not saying that it has gotten to the point where it’s aimless insults, only that it seems it may become that if it continues, not that mods need concern themselves this early on. I even doubt the Husk team intended to be involved on the Sponge forums at all or to be interrogated by this community since it seems they didn’t start the overall Husk ‘discussion’.

@HeirOfChairs
That’s true enough. Maybe they will, but I still suspect it’d need to be circulated among themselves before they all feel it’s safe to use as an official FAQ.

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91

I certainly hope so. Because the longer it takes the more it’ll be criticised for the lack of info. Not that it needs any more of course, but it seems to be a big issue with the general sponge community second only the open source issue. And even that doesn’t seem to be that bad after his reasonable explanation seems to have placated most people.

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