Your wakeup call


#21

That’s what I meant with ruled out from the beginning. I know that was said in the announcements. And if it came across like I was saying something else, then I apologize.

What do you mean? (I’m honstly confused) I’ve not said anything for those 29 waiting for phit to say anything. Now if waiting 29 days is being impatient, then I really don’t want to know what you’d consider patient.

I don’t have the knowlege about the code to say for sure. But it has been brought up in discussions that it would have been possible to do.

Sounds great.

I’ve never claimed it was? I’m saying it should become one to give the Vanilla Community an alternative. I’ve always acknowledged that it’s a fair bit of work.


#22

So, let’s assume that Ore suddenly was going to allow monetization of plugins. How long would it take to implement so that devs could use it? My conservative guess. A year at least. You know the Ore API V2 that we’ve been working on for months now? I initially thought I could get it out around May or so. Stuff takes time when only two devs are working on a project.

Oh, but I’m probably just not working enough on Ore, right? If I could just put in an hour extra of work every day, surely stuff would move faster? Well, that’s looking away from the fact that working on Ore is almost like a full-time job for me. There are loads of big features and projects that I know perfectly well how to do (in most cases), but stuff takes time to code and design. Every feature you propose is a feature we need to implement. Some just take 5 minutes, some like monetization would probably take a month to get just right. And honestly, there are features I would much rather work on than monetization.

The biggest reason why I do this is because I enjoy it. Not because it brings me fame, or because it opens up future paths for me, but simply because I enjoy it. I’m not going to do something I don’t enjoy doing. I’m sure it’s the same for many others here. So to just say that they should develop something for 1.13 vanilla, only to throw it away later because they probably need other designs to accommodate Forge is just insulting. Sure, if people want to do that, they’ll do it, but I’m not seeing anyone actually do it.

Why bring this up? Because you keep saying that people shouldn’t complain when people say they aren’t paid. The point isn’t that people should pay us for the work we do. We aren’t paid, and for me at least, I don’t mind. In fact, I kind of like it because it means I can decide what I work on. What I definitively don’t like is someone complaining that I should DO MORE when I have put my heart and soul into this project. If I had been paid, sure, it would have been different, I would have worked towards what the ones that paid me wanted. I’m not getting paid though, so I work the way I want. My time and commitment, my rules, and my opinions.


#23

Just to add to this - it’s not. Indeed, perhaps you should have asked sooner. Please consider that we miss things - phit forgot about it as an honest mistake - a simple nudge would be appreciated if you need an answer.


#24

The discussion happened prior to that. And then there was the announcement. As it was a purely technical discussion, it didn’t need to be made with non-staff.

I’ve waited longer than that for a reply. When I don’t get one, I badger them again, but I don’t assume they’re never going to respond. They’re only human. They forget things.

I added to the post since you quoted but before you responded:

Different 'it’s, then. It cannot ‘become’ a quick process for vanilla because, again, the vast majority of the work is in the implementation. Especially for an update as large as The Flattening. Just because both implementations are taking a long time does not mean that vanilla can be made faster by ignoring the rest. Fabric did the whole ‘fast and light shim’ thing for 1.13 modding, and now that Forge is catching up to 1.14 you can bet that almost nobody will use Fabric anymore because Forge is so much better for everyone involved. Same scenario here.


#25

Never said that. Please don’t interpret meaning into stuff I’ve said that’s not there. I’ve said it’s taking too long. Not that you’re not getting on with it. Big difference.

That’s why I’m not trying to join the staff team. The expections that would fall onto me are nothing I could fulfill in my current live situation. No matter how bad I want to help.
How’s that throwing stones from glass houses? I’ve always lived by the principle that if I can’t afford to fulfill the expections of a role, I can’t expect the benefits from it.
I do live by my word. Always have.

I absoltely see where you are taking insult. And that is a fair point I haven’t considered in my initial post.
Now there’s one key issue then that explains the wildly different perspective of things.

Communication.

Thinking about it makes it clear. There’s a clear lack of communication between the staff and the community. It’s perfectly ok that reviews are not happening because people are busy. But why is that not communicated? Instead people are just left to wonder when it’ll start. Why am I constantly complaining about my Ore suggestions going nowhere? Because I’m not part of those internal discussions and never got the memo that things are complicated.

I’m aware and that’s the exact opposite of what I’m asking.
While it may seem unfair to you that I’m complaining to you about 1.13/1.14 it’s just as unfair that I have to deal with users of my server giving grief about 1.13/1.14.

I wish I could. But I’m not familiar with Scala, nor any of the internal structures of Ore itself. So all I can realistically do is report bugs and offer suggestions.

Doing with the best of my abilities.


Now please don’t forget that the community does not know what you know. It would be much apprechiated if more infomation was communicated and general processes became more transparent. Because as of right now, if I shout into the dark forest I don’t even know if someone heard it (aka if it’s being discussed or not).
Can you understand where I’m coming from here?


#26

I’ve never said that anyone is not working enough. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

To maybe make it a bit clearer, I mean everything I say as literal as possible. I couldn’t include secondary meaning in my sentences if someone put a gun to my head, due to me having Aspergers. So for everyone. If I’m saying X, I mean X, just X and only X.

I know that just too well. I work in software development myself. Though it helps switching the perspective sometimes. And again communication is the key, especially if data or and ETA has been announced.

I’m aware. I am a software developer too. That’s why I’ve said it would be a good long term thing for Ore.

You guys should be paid. That’s not even up for debate. But still let you have your freedom of what you do. But I know it’s not possible. And I do understand why you find it ok that you’re not paid. I feel the same way about my MC stuff. I’d love to make money with it, but I want to maintain my freedom.

Never said that. Never meant that. I do understand that if you think that’s what I’ve said, that you are insulted. But again. Not what I said, nor what I want to express in any way, shape or form. My aplogies for not making this clearer.


#27

You are basing your complaint on the fact we’ve not worked fast enough for you because others are giving you grief for not being on 1.14. You’re telling us that we’re not working fast enough on an OSS project - something that we work on for free that you could also learn and work on. That’s INCREDIBLY arrogant.

We have zero obligation. We want to do this, we don’t have to do this. We might not have the time to do this that you wiish we had. Believe me, that’s the same here, we wish we had more time. But to insult us by saying “my users are complaining and it’s your fault so I’m going to complain to you, even though it’s OSS”… yeah.

I note what you’re saying. Communication. Sure, we recognise that we could be better, but it works both ways. Ask politely if you’re concerned. Don’t try to throw those you want to perform this work under the bus, like you did with this post. We’re not going to want to help you if you’re going to be rude to us.

We’re going to have a status update soon. Some of these issues will be answered there.


#28

Again, your expectation are above and beyond. If all our staff was held to those standards, we wouldn’t have a staff team.

How entitled do you think you are? Unwilling to help, but happy to pass on the blame - Sponge is always going to take longer than other competing software in the vanilla space, if you really can’t wait move to other competing software in the vanilla space.


#29

Really? I’d only ever hold other up to standards I hold up myself and consider to be fair. I hold you guys up to these standards, because if I was in your place those would be the one’s I’d hold myself up to.

Would you?

Now this has been brought up by several people. And I kinda take issue with the sentiment here. Let me explain.
You do realize that all I really can do is do reviews of PRs, comment on them or make some myself. Fair. The thing is I am not at all familiar with the project, nor with Minecraft’s current internal structures. Now if you’d be so kind and tell me how someone that knows at best 5% of the codebase and 10% of the overall project structure could meaningfully contribute in any significant way?
The thing is, I do what I can. I’ve opened several issues and one PR so far. I try to dig through the code when I have an issue so I can try to give educated suggestions based on that research so people familar with the project (or at least that part of the project) don’t have to do everything themselves.
And before you suggest it, no, I don’t have the time and resources to familiarize myself with project well enough to be able to help in a more effective manner sadly.

I’m glad to hear.

I typically do. Though recently (recent months) this has gotten me nowhere. So while the rant itself is the result of months of bad communication, I pretty much snapped and had to get this off my chest. While it was misguided due to me not correctly identifying the problem, I do understand that it does not excuse my the rudeness of my way.
The thing is, all I really want is communication that’s not made off of me constantly having to hunt after answers.


#30

So you want a 1.14 server right? Have you actually tried seen how well they run with lots of people on it? Our server just made the switch to 1.14. We currently have like 15-20 people on it. It’s running like crap. It’s hosted on a modern dedicated machine. And still we get like 5-10 TPS. Even if a Sponge 1.14 version existed today, I doubt that more than maybe 5-10% of all servers would be running on it. 1.14 is really just a bit more official snapshot version.


#31

I’m very well aware. And I can sell my users that 1.14 runs like crap. At least better than “there’s no 1.13/1.14”.

1.13 is the version I’d love to get my hands on as of right now. Which I’m also aware is worse performance wise.

Yeah. Really hoping for the full release soon.


#32

What we take issue with is that you do not have an understanding of what work is involved because you don’t have the time, and yet you’re pontificating what you want to see. It’s becoming increasingly clear how much you don’t understand about our project. And before you say “communication”, no, we expect some level of research before you start issuing demands. And before you say “expectation”, your expectations are not our promises, they are your expectations, not ours.

It is fine to not have the time. We have no expectation of anybody to contribute, BUT you have been writing your posts as if we should be doing more on top of what our already stressed workload is. What comes off a rude and insulting is that you say you have no time or expectation of yourself, but you have full expectation of us.

Here are our expectations. We expect that the community recognises us as human and that we make mistakes. We expect that the community will work with us when there are issues to resolve, even though we fail to communicate well at times. We expect those who want to make demands put in the work themselves. We expect those who ask to understand that we can only work on it when life allows. We do not expect the community to make life and work sacrafices to do so.

So, I reiterate. Put up or shut up. You have expectations of us that we never promised or signed up to. Our expectation is that you should help us any way you can if you feel that strongly. You’ve said you will, and I look forward to seeing your contributions.

We’re a volunteer project. We try our best. I’m sorry you don’t think it’s good enough, but do not come and start attacking the project when a polite conversation would have been so much better. All that has happened is you’ve riled up those who want to help you.

I think we all need to cool off. I don’t think this is going anywhere constructive.


#33

:thinking:


#34


#35

The summary of this is that, aside from the singular pull request, you have no specific complaints with the process. Not with prioritizing sections, not with triaging, not with development time spent on 7.2 vs 8.0. You aren’t complaining about any particular deficiency. Only that it’s not going fast enough, in your eyes.

It is going as fast as it can go. It is being written as fast as it can be written. As much time is being sunk into it as can be sunk into it. If you want it to go faster, make it go faster. If you don’t know the codebase, learn. If you can’t, accept that it is simply a problem of manpower and you are as much to blame as, for example, dualspiral, since AIUI he got to be staff by consistently writing PRs and making it go faster which you can also be doing. When I complain, I complain about things that are genuinely impossible to understand like inventories. If I had a problem with anything else I’d just go ahead and fix it. Suggestions on how to speed up are welcomed, but if your only request is “go faster” then nobody will listen to you and for good reason. The API is not dragging any development behind. It is just good solid implementation work.


#36

Then you misunderstood me.
I’ve been trying to say that different priorities might be better for the vanilla community. And based on statements by different devs and people doing so would increase the workload but in a managable way.

The only expectations I have are the ones I’d impose on myself in the same situation. I would not consider that rude or unfair. If you do, then I do apologize, but it certainly was not my intention to be rude with that sentiement.

Never said or claimed that. My message is not “You’re not good enough and don’t work hard enough” but rather “I think it would be better to go this alternative way.”
But as you’ve explained it would not be. And that is fair.
And to make it as clear as I can; I’ve intended to say that the work you do is bad or not enough. Just that from my limited understanding and personal preference I thought a different approach would have been better. And that some circumstances are very discouraging to new plugin devs and contributors.

And I’m going to say it again, when I say X, I mean X, just X and only X.

Triaging could be faster. See https://github.com/SpongePowered/SpongeAPI/issues (first page ~50% untriaged)

And the other complaint that stands is communication. Not claiming I’m not also at fault here. But having to nag people down to get updated status and things to move a long is not how things should be.


#37

I wish this was true. You have shifted your position several times in the above debate, and even admitted that a lot of it was hyperbole. Perhaps it’s time to stop digging the hole you’re in.


#38

And I’m going to say it again, when I say X, I mean X, just X and only X.

You have shifted your position several times in the above debate

so more like

And I’m going to say it again, when I say X, I mean Y, just Z and only W.

kek

Being serious though, i have always seen sponge as the forge plugin api, so it kinda doesn’t really matter for vanilla. I doubt spigot and whatnot really is going to be dethroned anytime soon, just they will stick to vanilla as they do best. And sponge can do forge stuff. Fact is, no modpacks are even out for 1.14 yet, so sponge isn’t even late to the punch, since most servers run modpacks.


#39

How is that contradictory to what I’ve said? I haven’t said my previous statements are ultimate thruths. What I mean to say is that I don’t communicate on the indirect layer. My statements are meant as written. If I change my opion about them later that doesn’t change what I meant when I wrote them. It means that you guys in fact showed me where I was wrong in my premature assesment.

Why is it so wrong for me to not want to use the awful Spigot API?


#40

Sponge’s staff is entirely made up of volunteers, who have been invited into the team through their contributions - there are no formal expectations of our staff, in most cases things stay much the same (in most cases, it just allows certain people access to internal discussions).

Sponge’s staff is largely made up of developers that consume Sponge is some way, and their use typically determines what they work on - we are volunteers after all, we can decide what we work on. The few members of our staff that did consume SpongeVanilla, have either departed the team (the original Granite team), or are less active these days - so our Forge implementation takes precedence.

We are volunteers, who get to choose what we work on because we’re not slaves to our community. Our staff have their own priorities, nobody dictates that to them (from Sponge anyhow) - that means that modded servers are prioritised, because that’s what our staff are largely using Sponge for.

If you want these things to happen, do it yourself or find someone that wants to do it. Our team contribute where and when they want, and as much as you may not like that - we’re not about to change that.