DarkArcana Discussion

I think you’re confusing “community project” with “total anarchy” or possibly some sort of egalitarian utopia. At some point the ideals have to come up against the real world. Suggest giving everyone admin on the forums, or control of the repositories and web domains, operator in the IRC channels or free reign over publicity and it would be obvious that it’s a bad idea, but for some reason “who is staff” is different? It honestly isn’t.

The staff exist to guide and nurture the project, and to actually allow it to exist in the real world. It’s important that the people who comprise that staff can work together, figure out solutions to the problems, make sure the project is going in the right direction, etc. etc.

We need leaders. Not because their voices are “more important”, but because this isn’t a full-time job for any of us. The reality is that we need to focus on our own parts of the project, chip in to ideas and larger issues where we can, but ultimately try to actually retain focus so that we can make headway. This means we need leaders. The leaders have their own focused job, which is to try like hell to keep abreast of everything that’s going on so that co-ordination can occur without everyone having to know what everyone else is doing. Their second job is - given that all voices have pretty much equal weight - to make a bloody decision when nobody else can agree on a particular thing, and this latter is the harder part.

I think there’s a perception that project leaders have some sort power, when the reality is that it’s an under-appreciated job which is bloody hard in its own right.

I don’t really want to weigh in one way or another, but people just aren’t getting the message to drop it and move on. It all boils down (and forgive me if I’ve gotten this wrong, but the whole thing seemed completely daft to me) to the fact that DarkArcana wanted “everyone to be leaders”, or rather to spread some presumed power out amongst the other core members of the team. Now I like DarkArcana, so take this in the proper context, but that’s a really daft idea. If the project leaders were some kind of totalitarian overlords, whose every whim we were forced to obey and whose word was as good as law then I can see the need for devolution, but it just doesn’t make sense when you offer up the concept against the actual reality of the fact that we’ve got 3 leaders, all will distinct (and thus pretty balanced) opinions and approaches. We have sk, the idealist, blood, the pragmatist and zidane, the artisan (my titles, but I think they’re pretty apt :wink:) A trio of different personalities provides a good balance.

A project needs a core team who say “let’s do this”, so that everyone can get on and actually do things without having to worry whether they’re working at cross purposes or somehow against the flow. The leaders are like the coxswain, not the captain, in this scenario. I don’t want to steer, I just want to row as well as I can, and that goes for a lot of the core team because we put our trust in the leaders and we work together. We have a good team and we have, I think, demonstrated this on an ongoing basis since we started this project.

Should this go to a vote? In all honesty, no. Like I said, there’s a difference between a community effort and a free-for-all. What the community wants does matter, but we have to keep that hand on the tiller of reality, and - much as it is not any fun to admit - DarkArcana put himself in a position where his membership of the team would be disruptive. Call it idealogical differences or whatever you want, but if someone fundamentally disagrees with how a project is going there’s little reconciliation that could occur in any meaningful sense. It’s a tough pill to swallow for those who’d like to see him back, but if wishes were horses… etc.

None of this means that he can’t be involved in the community if he wants to be. A community is a sum of it’s parts and you simply can’t exclude someone on that basis. By the same token, drama takes a while to drop out of the collective consciousness, and until that time is reached and the drama can be forgotten and we can all just move on with our lives and trying to move this project forward (have I mentioned that enough yet?) it’s probably best that things stay as they are. Looking at the very existence of this topic is proof enough that there are still people willing to poke at the hornet’s nest.

Should the IRC channel ban be lifted? That’s easy to determine. If people can move on from the drama, then there’s no reason the ban should stay in place because lifting it wouldn’t cause the drama to just be re-ignited. So have we reached that point?

No, not really. Just look at the stuff that’s cropped up on these very forums to see why.

Seriously, just drop the issue because in many ways all you are doing is pushing that blissful moment of “water under the bridge” back even further by constantly resurrecting utterly unproductive drama.


Only reason, aside from reading what people have to say, that I’m actually here. What I’ve eluded to, and what no one has asked me about up to this point is, do I want to be a member of Sponge staff? No. It would be a bad idea and would not work. It’s hard to come back from something like this and work well together. When a team dynamic isn’t in place, it just won’t work. That being said, I am excluded from a whole section of the community for a disagreement. I didn’t break any rules. I didn’t do what Disconsented did and spread private logs around. I was fairly quiet and just let it happen. I went about my business for a few months and then I see a thing mentioning me on Twitter. Something I said made someone think that I should be back in Sponge. So that turned into this. It’s fairly easy to see from the logs provided from IRC just from today that there are a few people with administrative access in IRC that do not want me back in the channel under any form and refuse to explain their reasoning for it. Some people here, whether they want me to be some staff member or otherwise, believe like me that this is wrong. When ideas end, actions begin. It’s fairly easy to tell what kind of people the Sponge leadership are based on their actions. If you disagree with them, they won’t just remove you for a bit till the dust settles, they will bar you entirely.

Looks like a slippery slope fallacy. No one suggested giving everyone admin access on the forums, control of the repository or web domains, or channel op on IRC. It is obvious that that’s a bad idea. You used it to make an illustration and paint his idea as just as bad as this thing you just conceived. They were talking about one person with experience in that particular position being reinstated to that position. Entirely different and you know it.

Some people didn’t understand why they had no say in a large part of the decision making process. They wanted to be more involved in that process. You can’t have everyone being a leader, but it’s probably a good idea that everyone feels that their opinion is known on a topic and that that opinion holds some weight to a decision that might come from it. This wasn’t always very clear.

At the time that many of these issues were being formed, we didn’t actually have any active leadership. SK disappeared for a long time and blood was understandably gone while he had a kid. There was no management or leadership structure. Some of the tension and mismanagement from that time boiled over creating this climate. You have to put it in the right context.

Now I want to remind anyone who may have forgotten. @Owexz was also banned for a time because he stood up for me and Disconsented. There was also a small group of people who wanted to fork Sponge into something called open Sponge (and then a bunch of other people who just wanted to watch what was going on). Out of all of these people who had concerns and potentially fundamental differences in opinion on how the project should operate, two people are still banned, and one didn’t really do anything except voice an opinion and disagree with the current state of affairs. Do you see what’s wrong?

Just going to drop this here and say that the sense of an elitist circle at the top of this project is why I went back to Bukkit development for the time being…


If anything, Bukkit is MORE elitist.

Sponge has a huge chunk of the old bukkit team in it now.

Not a good thing, in my humble opinion, except for @mbaxter because he is just a cat.

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Seriously, just drop the issue because in many ways all you are doing is pushing that blissful moment of “water under the bridge” back even further by constantly resurrecting utterly unproductive drama.

You know, I absolutely agree, yet again, with @Mumfrey and his post hits the nail right on the head. I have no problem with removing an IRC ban so long as the drama is over with. There has been zero drama made from our side and we have dropped it…I wish I knew why others won’t do the same.

This includes yourself. Given the opportunity, you sparked right back up with a post (that isn’t even correct but I digress) that completely undermines what you want.

Its been two months (or so, I forget) since this whole affair went down. Drop it already…

To be honest, you all really didn’t drop it either. The IRC ban was evidence of that. I really hate to see stuff like that, seriously, it wouldn’t have been hard at all to just unban them. The drama has been over, it just recently started so the argument that we haven’t dropped it doesn’t apply to the IRC situation. (It does now, but you get my point)


This 100% is the reason why the whole thing is going on.

Indeed, which is what I was lampshading above.

I think that’s rather unfair, using hyperbole to make a point is not the same as distorting facts to win an argument. I’m trying to be a voice of reason and if that’s come off wrong then I’m sorry. But being combative doesn’t help, since your argument then becomes ad hominem because you’re attacking me.

It’s clear you still feel strongly about this, that’s all I’ll say about that. Discussing it isn’t going to go anywhere.

[quote=“DarkArcana, post:24, topic:6722”]…

Do you see what’s wrong?[/quote]
Not really. If it was possible for everyone involved to just drop the issue and get on with things, then absolutely, it makes sense to have no bans in place. But the very fact that threads like this exist precludes that possibility. All it would do would be to resuscitate the old drama, and I can’t see that anyone genuinely wants that.

I think we’re both being taken the wrong way :D. Didn’t mean to come off as combative, and if I did, I’m sorry. I like a good debate, but I don’t want to be an ass about it.

But in any case, I have no interest in being involved in Sponge. I’m dropping it and walking away now. You guys can have your fun. I’ve got my answer.


For reference, only 4/30 of our staff are Ex-Bukkit staff, by no means a massive chunk. Our team is composed of people who have come from a diverse range of communities to work on this project. Tarring them all with the same brush does a disservice to the work that they have put in without payment, for a project that is free for the entire community to use.


To further comment, I had completely forgotten the IRC ban was still in effect until today when this whole mess of drama sparked right back up. I’ll also state again, for the third time now, that I have no issues removing it.

Just keep my channels drama free


Of course you’re happy to have “dropped” the issue. You’re happy with the decision that was made. As for the “I wish I knew why others won’t do the same” is simply put, others aren’t happy.

EDIT: Just saying. :smile:


I can now see why DarkArcana shouldn’t be staff. A) That’s against his wishes and B) there would be too much tension between him and the staff. But if Owexz or Zidane are the staff’s ambassador to the community, DarkArcana should be the community’s ambassador to the staff team.

I tend to agree with @DarkArcana that the community needs a bigger part in this. They need to be more informed and I think the opinions of the community itself should be taken into at least consideration. Its fine to have your private chats and discussions, the staff have a right to dicuss particular things. Still, sometimes I think Sponge forgets that they are an open source project and not a business. Yeah you have your LLC and everything but that is just for donations and a few other things of an official nature. The code, the project itself still pretty much belongs to the community. I fully believe that the community itself is one of the most important parts of this project and it should be treated as such. It doesn’t have to be “total anarchy” it can just be doing regular updates and occasionally asking for input.

One thing I found interesting when @DarkArcana and @Disconsented left was that there was a noticeable drop in the moderation of the forums and the updates of the community. That still hasn’t gone back to what it was before. If @DarkArcana does not want to be a staff member, fine, but I do believe that his ideas have merit.


Well I am at a crossroads here, I cannot reasonably express my views on the matter without it being considered ‘drama’ : |


Can’t make it much worse. FIRE AWAY!


At this point, I do not wish to do it publicly.


So far I’m not implicated enough (yet?) in Sponge to precisely understand the issue here.

However it seems that part of the problem is that someone complained about some info around Sponge was restricted to Sponge team and not made public to the community. As an outsider, I must agree with that.

Sponge is an open-source large project and needs to be managed by a staff team, but why should we hide part of the info to the community? Everybody can have good contributions to bring. To me, open-souce goes with full transparency, and elitism is not an issue as long as it’s true (I’m a perfectionnist, I know)

I speak a little for myself: I have a professionnal tech background and I’m really charmed by the idea behind Sponge. I’d like to be a casual contributor, but I can’t clearly see the roadmap and priorities, except some issues on GitHub. I may pop some time on IRC but I clearly don’t have time to camp there.

I may be totally wrong, in this case please tell me. Otherwise, I’d really like you to consider it :blush: